ON THE ART OF RESILIENCE
Marta Nowak in conversation with Michele Salzman
MARTA NOWAK
Maria Curie-Skłodowska University, Lublin
Marta Helena Nowak is a PhD candidate in History at Maria Curie-Skłodowska University (Lublin, Poland) and a graduate in classical philology from the Catholic University of Lublin (Poland). She specializes in the study of medieval Irish visionary literature and cultural memory in the Middle Ages and is currently finalizing her dissertation, “The Vision of Tnugdal as a Medium of Cultural Memory of the Irish Community in the Regensburg Monastery of St. James.” She is the author of “The Role of Time and Space in Counterfactual Thinking,” in In Lieu of Duration: Spatiotemporal Excursions in Literature, Film and Architecture, ed. Maciej Stasiowski (London: Interdisciplinary Discourses, 2021), 219–33.
Michele Renee Salzman is Distinguished Professor of History at the University of California, Riverside, where she has taught since 1995. Her research focuses on the religious, political, and social history of Ancient Rome, with a strong emphasis on the use of material evidence to explain the past. She has published many books (most recent is The Falls of Rome [Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2021]) and edited a few others (for example, The Cambridge History of Religions in the Ancient World [Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2013]). In addition to her other professional activities, she is currently Associate Editor of Studies in Late Antiquity.
Cite this post: Marta Helena Nowak and Michele Renee Salzman, “On the Art of Resilience,” One More Thing… (blog), History and Theory, October 2023, https://historyandtheory.org/omt-poznan/nowak-salzman.
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Marta Nowak: How would you define the status of historiography in academia today?
Michele Salzman: I think it is thriving both outside and inside academia. I think recent events, especially the war in Ukraine, have made it very apparent why the past is important to the present in European and American life. Some professional historians can survive and thrive outside academia, which is harder in certain ways: you have to be a better writer to succeed. But there is widespread interest in what historians do and how they approach the past. Being able to speak to a wider audience is something that I have seen as an increasingly important role for historians. People need to understand the past in order to move into the future, and that need is being recognized now all the more because of current events.
MN: The situation in Ukraine has altered our previous perception of the world. I would never expect to experience a global plague or a war so close to home. We are becoming medieval to some degree.
MS: Yes—medieval or Late Roman. Yes, the war in Ukraine has very much been a shock to many people. Teaching about war has become immediately relevant in America, where there are fights about how you teach history and how to teach American history in particular. Also, many people are very much aware of the power that lies in the historian’s interpretation of the past. It is very clear that there are different views of how you teach all sorts of history in our public schools. [This fighting shows] how history can be used and abused in many ways, on many levels.
MN: How do you see the future of history from a practitioner’s perspective? What are the essential new threats and new opportunities in historical studies?
MS: I see the greatest threat being [connected] with academic freedom. There is fear to speak up about one’s interpretations as not being politically correct. I think another potential problem is connected with the changes to the universities and the decreasing number of secure, well-paid positions for younger scholars. There are not enough tenure-track positions in the US or good jobs that historians can apply for outside of academia. And so, some of the students are adapting to that new reality and looking for alternative positions, in research or in the government, for example. I teach at the University of California, Riverside, where we have a public history program that prepares historians to work in archives, libraries, and museums, as well as at a variety of other organizations. So, there are ways of adjusting to this economic reality, but the turning away from academia is, I think, both a threat and an opportunity for historians to do different kinds of research.
MN: And from the point of view of the theory of history, have you noticed any new trends in historical studies that may be seen as a threat or a future of history?
MS: I think one exciting new opportunity has to do with the application of a scientific set of data to history. For example, on the issues of climate change or the spread of diseases in the ancient world, new kinds of evidence can be used if there is a conjunction of these, what we would generally call hard-science approaches, to some of these bigger questions in history. This can be very exciting. Another example comes to mind. I know several people in Italy who have been working on the analysis of tree rings in order to understand the changing patterns of agrarian usage in central Italy. That work provides me, as a historian, with new evidence about what was happening in central Italy’s economy when our texts do not talk about these issues. I think that is a really exciting opportunity. The work of historians like Patrick Geary, [1] who looks at DNA analysis in order to understand the movements of peoples in the late Roman [Empire] and in the post-Roman Empire, can offer new sorts of information, raising different kinds of questions. Those raise theoretical issues insofar as you have to use this scientific approach to the past in conjunction with textural and other kinds of evidence.
MN: Which recent historical findings do you find most interesting and inspiring and why?
MS: One important work is Kyle Harper’s book, The Fate of Rome, [2] which talks about climate change and disease. There are problems with his methodology, which I will not go into here, but I do think he raises tremendously interesting questions, and he has applied new sorts of information, like tree rings and paleogenetic analysis, to look at the ways in which disease affects societies. I also am inspired by Ian Wood’s book The Transformation of the Roman West, [3] where he looks at some of the same issues that Peter Brown raised in Through the Eyes of the Needle, [4] looking at the economic impact of the spread of Christianity. But he is also quantifying some of the ways in which the creation of wealth changed the Roman Empire. My work on resilience was very much influenced by Kyle Harper’s sounding of that theme and how he looked at it through the social science lens—I have tried to look at it through the historian’s lens.
MN: Over the last century, the general approach to the study of Late Antiquity and the decline of the Roman Empire was subject to many changes. What new trends do you see in the contemporary approach to the study of Late Antiquity?
MS: Since Peter Brown’s early works in 1971 opened the way to this explosion of work on Late Antiquity, there has been tremendous work done on religion and its impact, and on the growth of the Church in Roman society. There is no doubt that the spread of Christianity and the rise of Islam were tremendously transformative developments, but I think that newer approaches that focus on the economic implications of these transformations and some of the cultural changes underneath it are important. I also think the new trend that I am involved in, the study of global Late Antiquity, will be important: that is, attempts to study the ways in which traditions of the late Roman Empire interacted with other parts of the world—this is the kind of global Late Antiquity that is an exciting new possible trend. This work may require teamwork, which is another change, but I think it is an interesting trend that could develop.
MN: Despite extensive studies and new trends, the fall of the Roman Empire remains one of the markers of Late Antiquity: Why is this topic worth constant revision in the contemporary historical debate?
MS: Well, first we have to define what we mean by the fall of Rome, right? That is why every generation has its definition influenced by some of its own experiences. So, you know, looking at the fall of Rome is very much a Rorschach test of what we are most concerned about. When we are deeply concerned about climate change, our fall of Rome is connected with that. We were once, at least in America, as was Ramsay MacMullen, interested in corruption; so corruption was the reason for the fall of Rome. [5] Former President Reagan was concerned with changing sexual morality, and so he claimed it was a sexual revolution that led to the fall of the Roman Empire. It is just another way of talking about the present by looking at this cataclysmic event.
MN: In your latest book, The Falls of Rome: Crises, Resilience, and Resurgence in Late Antiquity, [6] you present a new historiographical paradigm, proclaiming that the social interactions of the aristocracy and their ability to rebuild the city and social structures were primarily responsible for the revival of Rome’s culture after a series of major crises. Is there a lesson for us hidden in the narrative about the Roman elite, a lesson for the time of crisis?
MS: I confess that I finished the book during the pandemic, and the theme of resilience was a key concept. I was thinking about the constant determination of elites to rebuild and revive their lives. The past very much spoke to me personally about the need for resilience in the midst of the pandemic. And also, it made me think about the importance of returning and rebuilding relationships, even with those you disagree with, as key to any social restoration. Although there were a number of pagan senators, they were still involved in the negotiations with the Christian emperors and Christian bishops: compromise had to be done in order to survive. A Christian may say that it is like selling out your soul, but I think they had to work together in order to survive. And another lesson is the importance of leadership, and that lesson is not only for the elite. I focused on the elite because, in Late Antiquity, that is where there is so much more evidence.
MN: In your reflections, you redefine the concept of resilience, widely used in the social sciences as a key concept explaining the transformation of Rome in its transitional period. In contemporary historical research, do you see the need for an interdisciplinary approach linking social science or cognitive studies with the conventional historian’s work?
MS: I think [the linking of social science or cognitive studies with the conventional historian’s work] depends on the question. I found it useful to [use social science to] explain the phenomenon I was researching. I do think it can be helpful when it is needed (depending on the problem you want to solve). I would not say it is always necessary, but it can be. For instance, people working on Late Roman slavery see that making comparisons with other slave societies can be helpful to some degree (they can benefit from using the well-known work of Orlando Patterson). [7] On the other hand, I read some recent studies that were really not helped by social science because they were about societies dealing with natural disasters and were not considering the human values used to address these crises. As a historian, I am interested in how humans interact with climate change, not just the change itself.
MN: At the Congress, you were a presenter in a panel, “Holy Virgins and Blessed Rulers: Eastern and Western Perspectives,” that focused on the problem of women’s monasticism in Late Antiquity. When did the role of women in the monastic communities of this transitional period start to be recognized? Was it limited due to the lack of sources, or was it rather the aftermath of a particular turn in scholarly discourse?
MS: I think that the role of women has been recognized for a long time. I would say, really, that it was in the 1980s that there was a tremendous amount of interest in women in monastic communities, women living ascetic lives, [women,] holy virgins. And here I can cite the work of Elizabeth Clark, who was a founding mother and inspired many to study women in Early Christianity and in Late Antiquity. One of the books that I found inspiring is her 2021 book on Melania the Younger, [8] where she revisits the translation of Melania the Younger’s life and updates her interpretation of the meaning of her life. I also think there has been important work done by Professors Susanna Elm and Kate Cooper. That said, one of the distinctive contributions of the panel was the comparison between the East and the West and the focus on individual women’s lives in different places. That comparative element really made the panel very exciting. They addressed questions that have not been answered: one of them really has to do with the economic agency of women. That is what I have been particularly interested in. What independence, what autonomy did women have because of their economic resources? And this raises some other questions that I have had for a long time now. Is the adoption of asceticism by women a gain or a loss? Does asceticism improve the material as well as social components of women’s lives, or is it something that we cannot really say benefits them? Or is it something that, in economic or in social terms, limits them? So, those kinds of new questions about the role of asceticism in the lives of women that are emerging now have not been fully answered. I was particularly interested in looking at the women in house ascetic communities because I wonder if these sorts of ascetic communities are more independent and also [if], because they are run by women, they [are] more beneficial to the women in them. This lays out the possibility for new leadership roles for women in ancient Rome, which can be inspiring for many different reasons.
MN: Using modern theories, can we effectively redefine the role of women in Late Antiquity? You mentioned the new questions that arise now and that have not been arising before. So, the question is how to actually use these modern approaches toward redefining the concept of women and women’s role in Antiquity. For instance, is the “herstory” approach (which, for some, is somewhat controversial) possible and justified in the studies of Antiquity?
MS: Well, it depends on how you do it. I think [that], to some degree, we have to be asking questions that late antique or medieval sources do not see as valid or do not want to discuss because they are not essential to stories that they, as male writers, want to tell us. We can find an example in Saint Jerome’s description of Marcella, one of the ascetic matrons of Late Antiquity. Jerome does not want to talk about Marcella’s independence unless he can say that she is taking a leadership role that supports his position. So, we would have not known about this role for Marcella unless Jerome had not mentioned her standing up to the bishop of Rome. We could develop a description of her role from Jerome’s point of view, but can we develop Marcella’s view? Can I tell a different story from the one that Jerome says? Herstory? I myself do not feel completely comfortable doing that unless I can supply good evidence for her point of view. But if you made it clear that you are making hypotheses and suppositions, telling history from a woman’s point of view could be a useful way to think about history, especially ancient history, which always requires an act of imagination anyway. You have to imagine yourself in a different time to write ancient history, so asking [questions] from a woman’s perspective is useful, but you still need to have some sort of evidence. How to interpret the silences is also challenging, but I think you have to have some evidence to make the connections. And you will have a very limited history if you only look at women. But to include women is necessary for any historian.
MN: In your view, what are the prospects of advancing the research of Late Antiquity in the next few decades?
MS: I think they are excellent! I know there is a lot of new work that can be done especially by expanding beyond the traditional borders of the Empire. I have already mentioned global Late Antiquity. I think a lot can be done by moving the boundaries of Late Antiquity back in time as well. The third century, for instance, would benefit from the study of new epigraphic and new texts, such as the historian Dexippus. The whole third century needs a re-evaluation. And there are certain problems, especially in East-West relations, that need revisiting. It is amazing to me that it is still a topic that very much needs to be better discussed. What happened to the administration of the Late Empire in the East and the West, and what kind of interconnections did they have in the third and fourth centuries? I think it is not at all addressed.
MN: Professor Salzman, sadly, it is the last question in this conversation. You partially answered it when discussing the direction of future research, but what issues do you think will dominate the study of Late Antiquity in the near future?
MS: I think religion will continue to dominate Late Antiquity because it is such a transformative force. Judaism has been underappreciated in some way, as well as Islam and traditional religion (paganism), in the study of Late Antiquity. I think problems dealing with climate change and infectious disease will remain and grow as subareas of study in the field. I also think economic history will become a topic that attracts study. People will look at the economic factors by using archaeological and scientific evidence that has not been available before. I think another area that is ripe for interpretation is studies that focus on illness and health care. There [were] studies on poverty in the 1980s, and I think it will be an issue again now. Yes, there is much more work that can be done.
Notes
[1] See the work of Patrick J. Geary in Carlos Eduardo G. Amorim et al., “Understanding 6th-Century Barbarian Social Organization and Migration through Paleogenomics,” Nature Communication 9 (2018), https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-018-06024-4.
[2] Kyle Harper, The Fate of Rome: Climate, Disease, and the End of an Empire (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2017).
[3] Ian Wood, The Transformation of the Roman West (Amsterdam: Amsterdam University Press, 2018).
[4] Peter Brown, Through the Eye of a Needle: Wealth, the Fall of Rome, and the Making of Christianity in the West, 350–550 AD (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2012).
[5] Ramsay MacMullen, Corruption and the Decline of Rome (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1988).
[6] Michele Renee Salzman, The Falls of Rome: Crises, Resilience, and Resurgence in Late Antiquity (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2021).
[7] Orlando Patterson, Slavery and Social Death: A Comparative Study (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1982).
[8] Elizabeth A. Clark, Melania the Younger: From Rome to Jerusalem (New York: Oxford University Press, 2021).
